Feminists For Life

I completely agree that pro-life feminism is an oxymoron. I don't understand how somebody who supports women's rights can take away their freedom. When I first saw the Feminists for Life website I was absolutely furious – it just lends credence to all the people who already criticize feminism.

The highest achievement I can attain?

Oh, ugh.

Man....GRRR!

I mean, hey, I dig kids, I have a lot of respect for amazing, good mothers, especially having been a teacher, especially having, in my life and my work, seen plenty of mothers who were NOT good mothers. I know, absolutely, that pregnancy and childbirth is hardly a walk in the park.

But while I have value for those things, no one has the right to tell me or any group what our one "highest achievement" is. And a group doing that to women, no matter what they say it is, save saying it is WHATEVER a given women decides it is for HER, is very clearly not speaking from a feminist perspective. And practically and statistically speaking, I can say for even myself that you know, it's more work for me to try and get a Nobel Prize than to become pregnant and remain so. But there shouldn't even be any need for me to say that, because it's laregly irrelvant, and some women WILL consider good parenting (not pregnancy, different deal) a highest achievement, and that IS just as valid as anything else.

There are so many issues here, I can't even do more than get started, especially on the morning's first cup of coffee.

I HAVE herad some arguments linking a LACK of abortions with feminism that do have validity and that do address feminist issues. This isn't one of them.

I think she makes good points. Women are told that if they are poor, young and unmarried that they shouldn't have children. Women are not respected for having children in our society, women are not respected for having the power to create life. However, that has nothing to do with ones feelings on abortion rights or loving your body and that's where I can disagree with her piece. I honestly do not understand women who are anti-choice "feminist". Abortion rights have and never will be a moral issue. Abortion rights are about women's health. Even if you are against abortions from a moral standpoint, I believe you can have the brains to understand abortions are a medical need for many women or at least understand that moral viewpoints have to remain a personal choice. Ugh. It angers me so much. Why is it so hard to see, no abortion clinics = no abortion doctors = no abortions for women who need them in an emergency. Why can't people, especially other women understand that abortion is not a act of convenience or selfishness? That its a hard decision for even the most radical feminist to make? All I can think is that these women are judgemental or naive.

I wonder what she came across that made her change her mind (and her politics) so dramatically. It had to be huge, you know?

I think you're counter-argument is vastly more reasonable than her original assertions (ah, but I'm singing to the choir now :). I'm interested in why she chooses to blind herself to the idea of a woman's individual choice, societal pressures not withstanding.

Brooke points out the strengths of your friend's argument in her comment; we do, as a culture, undervalue the children of lower socioeconomic classes. But the culture of Christianity and anti-choice that we live in makes the idea of free-for-all or even legal at-will abortions laughable. The pressure to abort is nothing close to the pressure to carry; I think your friend could stand to think about that for a moment.

"A woman for a general, and the soldiers will be women."

I think the real change came when she started dating her current mormon boyfriend, and I guess became more involved with her spirituality. I'm not going to say it's the boyfriends' fault, but it's reaaally tempting to put the blame on the relationship.

What really gets me now is that I hear she has a job at a pregnancy crisis center. Yeah, one of *those*.

You're damn right "one of those." Ugh. That's stomach turning.

Mormon boyfriend. I have one of those. He tends to set me off organized spirituality when I think about his religion though. --But he's a bad Mormon. Maybe he doesn't count in this discussion. >p

"A woman for a general, and the soldiers will be women."

That's got to be so tough for you to deal with just in terms of your friendship. :(

It was heart breaking... I'll share some of her attack with you. It shocked me because she has a single mom. Not only that, but she ended up moving in with her husband, who's elderly mother supported the both of them.

She wrote the following after I had just blogged an article about women in Iran getting beaten by police during a International Women's Day Celebration/ Protest at the University.

"…and why are you worrying about women in other countries? Yeah, women get paid less to do a man's job but sometimes they get paid less cuz they suck at it. You know women aren't meant to be corporate things. They're oversensitive, emotional wrecks. all of them. so shut up... and i wonder... are your boyfriends/fiances/husbands feminists too? or are they men? i know one specific feminist who has a great guy -- quiet, but great. her perfect match. i wonder how he feels about having a manbasher as his girl. ...women are those types who when you're lookin at them they're filing their nails with a nail file and when your back is turned, they stab you with it… men support you...What do you do for your man?"

I took out a bunch because it was too long... but I'm sure you get the point. The feminist was me. The you's were all addressed to me. It was horrible to read, as it was right before I finished my application for AGA.

It's nice to know when you lose a friend... due to irreconcilable differences ( because there’s no way in hell I’m going to speak to her after that attack)… that we are able to find awesome women to share our life with.

I’m so happy to have met you and all the other women at AGA; (even though I’ve never met you or the rest of the women here, I trust you and the rest more than I ever trusted my former best friend).

I don't mean to do hearsay psychoanalysys of your friend, because that tends to be inaccurate and come off as trite or dismissive, but all I could think when I read that was, "Wow, what a stunning illustration of cultural Stockholm Syndrome."

Being that self-hating is one thing: lobbing it at someone else, at another woman who trusted you, is the very defintion of misogyny. (And how doubly horrendous to read that as a survivior.)

The whole "pro-life feminist" thing has always been a tricky issue for me. While the "Feminists for Life" site clearly isn't working towards bodily integrity for women (and I love your response to it), I have met individual women who are largely feminist except for this one issue.

I think it's important to remember that while we see this as an issue about the woman's body, first and foremost, that aspect is often invisible to anti-abortion folk, and they see an embryo or fetus as having the same status in their mind as say, a five year old child who exists independently, and THAT is what is first in their mind. While I very stronlgy feel that giving a fetus this status demeans pregnant women to something less than a free-thinking autonomous adult (the WOMAN comes first damn it!), I do think that it can be helpful to try to understand the thought processes that lie behind their perspective (remembering that understanding does NOT equate to agreement).

The fact is that there are some women who just don't SEE a conflict between a fetus having rights and a woman having rights, and believe themselves to be just as feminist as any pro-choice woman. The problem is that saying "you can't be a feminist because of this" alienates these women further from feminist discourse, and means that there's less chance for them to engage in a dialogue about female bodily autonomy-- and they're much more likely to end up at that horrible "Feminists for Life" site. Ugh.

At the same time, however, it's of utmost importance that as feminists we create safe spaces for women where our reproductive choices will always be respected-- and of course, if we engage in these dialogues there is always a huge liklihood that those choices will not be respected.

To me, the idea of "feminists for [embryonic/fetal] life," who don't believe that a woman should be able to choose abortion, seems to be as contradictory as, say, "feminists for wifely obedience." However, there ARE a lot of women who would make a distinction between those, who would call themselves feminist and "pro-life", and I do want to find a good, respectful, feminist way of approaching women with these views, with the aim of helping everyone develop as feminists, rather than excluding women from feminism (because I hate the idea of excluding women from feminism). However, I can't think of how to do this effectivley myself-- I really hope that someone else out there has the answer.

I think your friend is on her way to becoming the next Ann Coulter.

Hahahaha Brooke - that's crossed my mind before! (and a couple of other people's, too.)

And Jennifer - I'm glad I've met you and all of these lovely ladies, too. With the exeunt of my friend/s at the beginning of summer, I'm so glad that I was able to replace them with supportive, outspoken and outrageous girls like you!

I'm sure that there is some way to integrate feminism and being pro-life...it's just I think the key is keeping your message respectful and understanding that every woman might not agree with you. Tell people why you're pro-life, and what you think needs to change in society - but don't tell people why *they're* not a feminist, or why *they* are hurting themselves, or why *they* need to listen to you, or else. There's no such thing as a feminist message that at the same time...insults feminists. To me, a large part of feminism is showing respect to women, regardless of their choices - even if you believe differently - because that's what the object of the game is...Allowing women to be and believe anything they want.

...and it's VERY simple, and entirely pro-CHOICE, to, for yourself as a woman, and for yourself only, be anti-abortion or for remaining pregnant when pregnancy occurs.

That may b stating the obvious, but I think it can always stand to be said again. :)

I get the pro-life arguements that claim abortion is an easy way out for men who force women to have abortions so they don't have to take responsiblity for their actions. I can understand how some women can see abortion as a product of our society and the patriotiarchy, because our society does make us choose between work and children, our society does critize unmarried mothers. Yet, I don't see why people feel the need to force their values on other people, espeically when abortion isn't always a choice, but a need for women. Its like, I'm a pacifist, I don't believe in owning guns for myself and I am vegitarian so I don't believe in hunting for sport. However, I wouldn't prevent a sane, adult citizen from taking advantage of his/her consitutional right to own a gun or to go hunting. Living in a democratic republican society we all just have to get used to co-existing with people who have different values then we do.

You can accidentally shoot someone, stalk someone with your weapon, or forget to leave your gun unloaded (or just not bother to ever do so) so someone's kid blows his head off.

One can't "run into" an abortion, or happen to fall head-first on a vacuum aspirator just lying around.

(Though I sometimes have to wonder if maybe the president of our country did, which would sure explain a lot.)

Yes, but Heather both abortions and gun-ownership are consitutional rights. There should be controls on both to ensure they are safe (guns should only be given to sane, no-violent individuals, guns should be locked etc., surgical abortions should only be done by trained professionals) yet both should remain legal. Sure some people do illegal acts with gun access and you can't really particpate in an illegal act with abortion rights. However, they are the same in that some people view the orginal intention (guns for hunting, abortions for terminating pregnancy) as wrong, while others do not, and as adults and members of our society the choice to make moral decisions should be our own.

I wasn't really addressing gun-ownership per how it should be treated (flatly, it's generally an issue I just don't touch, because it is MUCH too personally loaded for me, and something I'm very aware I have too much personal tragedy around to look at without strong bias).

But I partially agree with your latter statement in that context, for sure. Not sure -- actually, I'm sure I don't -- I'm in complete agreement, since abortion and D&Cs are medical issues, and for many people, no more about morailty than whether or not to be on the pill is, but I'm with you per your general sentiments here.

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