Jill
Reged: Jun 22 2006
Posts: 132
Loc: Irons, MI, US
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I love women-only spaces but I don't get too many chances to be in them, simply because there don't seem to be too many out there.
Obviously in women-only spaces women are making all the decisions, we are the ones doing everything. It's nice to see a hierarchy that has women at every level. It's easier to believe my ideals are reasonable when I'm seeing some of them in action. There's just something about it that I find very reassuring.
So what are your experiences with women-only spaces? What do you get out of them? What's available to you? Have you created any? I'm interested. 
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Beppie
Reged: Jun 22 2006
Posts: 362
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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One of the things that has struck me over the last year or so is how often women create women's spaces for themselves without naming them as such. This actually occured to me for the first time when I was invited to a Christmas party at a local beauty salon (I go there to get my legs waxed sometimes)-- they put on a bit of a do with drinks and nibbles, and everyone who turned up was female. I know that the beauty industry as a whole is about women fitting ourselves-- often torturing ourselves-- into unrealistic moulds: the industry as a whole is about enabling the idea that women's bodies are things that need to be controlled. Knowing this, I wasn't expecting what I found at that party: a hugely diverse number of women: though most of us were relatively privileged (after all, we were all wealthy enough that we could go to a beauty salon at least once a year), we were different in terms of race and size, occupations and interests-- and there was a really excellent sense of supportive women's community there. I've only had my legs waxed once this year, and I think that my main reason for doing it was that I wanted to secure my invite to this year's party. :P
Anyway, I've noticed that we often create little women's spaces for ourselves, but we need to cloak them in something socially acceptable-- and by socially acceptable, I mean, cloak them with something that reinforces discourses through which women are controlled. I've already mentioned the beauty industry, but the whole "girls' night" thing strikes me as another one-- these are often typified by "chick flicks" that encourage women into conservative heteronormative relationships, and activities for which women are belittled-- of course, even the name "girls' night' is a belittling when you're referring to adult women.
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Jill
Reged: Jun 22 2006
Posts: 132
Loc: Irons, MI, US
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That's really interesting Beppie. I hadn't thought of things like girls' night as women only but I guess that means I missed the point.
I also love the subversive side of society/media-ordained grooming into a supportive community. It helps confirm my theory that most women do in fact want a women's community and women's spaces in their lives but that's certainly not a way I'd have thought to create it. Very cool.
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wombat
Reged: Feb 09 2007
Posts: 10
Loc: Cambridge, England
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A few years back I was nominated to be a moderator of theladiesloos community on Livejournal; at that point, as a result of an argument with my boyfriend, I left the community, largely because he was making a lot of points I had no answers for - not least that in all other aspects of our relationship we did our utmost to avoid acquiring secrets to keep from one another, but I was a member of a community that didn't allow discussion of the content with non-members.
So, um, yes. My experiences have been more-or-less positive, but very confusing, and I *still* don't have any answers I feel are *convincing* about why I should feel more comfortable in women-only space, so I tend to avoid it, mostly, nowadays.
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Brooke
AGA Blogger
Reged: Jun 23 2006
Posts: 466
Loc: Pennsylvania
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I haven't had alot of experiences in women only spaces when it comes to real life. My all girls soccer team in high school had a male coach, I had my boyfriend in the room when I gave birth, I don't go to salons, the parenting group I am in holds meetings on the weekends so dads can come. I think all of the situations in my life which should have been women-only ended up having a few men involved. Online I've had more success in groups like this one and also on a mom's only online website. What I have really found that's great about women only spaces online is that women are more supportive of each other and less insulting in debates. I used to go on girlpunk.net's message board, but left when one guy on there kept saying I was a fat cow and my boyfriend was going to leave me. I was in lots of feminist groups on myspace but got kicked out of all of them for getting in arguments with men, who of course insulted me by saying I was just a "little girl" and being downright sexist. I haven't had alot of problems in women only groups.
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Jill
Reged: Jun 22 2006
Posts: 132
Loc: Irons, MI, US
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Brooke, have you noticed that women-centered (not women-only) groups tend to either get derailed by men or become overly focused on men's needs, to the point of actively privileging men? I know I've had that experience a few times.
There's one online community where I lurk that was created for women to talk about having body hair. I lurk there but never post because fairly regularly some man will come along to tell us just how sexy he find us all. Even comments like that, that are ostensibly positive, take the focus off women and put it back on men and, in this case, the male gaze.
In situations like that I'm frustrated both by the realization that some men feel free to be in a space that is pretty clearly intended for women and by the reality that some women would rather have male approval than a chance to not be objectified. Your experiences being kicked out of feminist groups for arguing with men sounds like it's in the same vein.
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Jill
Reged: Jun 22 2006
Posts: 132
Loc: Irons, MI, US
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Wombat, I'm not familiar with the group you mentioned but I'd like to hear your ideas about balancing women-only spaces with a heterosexual relationship. I've never had to give much thought to how much is too much sharing or what kind of things, beyond privacy concerns, should stay in those spaces.
Personally I'm more comfortable in women-only spaces because there I'm not expected to live up to a male-centered society's norms. At this point in my life I'd like to give women more of my time and attention than men and that's very much not okay in most spaces. It is nearly always assumed that I will privilege men and their wants and needs before women's and even before my own. I also find that the women I meet in women-only spaces understand that women are still not treated as equal members of our society; elsewhere I hear all too often that feminism has outlived it's usefulness and women are now equals so why are we still angry? Any break from that kind of attitude is welcome.
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wombat
Reged: Feb 09 2007
Posts: 10
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Oh, gosh. Um. We're perhaps not terribly helpful as far as getting any idea about a "normal" relationship goes, given that we're both bi and I'm somewhat genderqueer and he's completely unbothered by his gender and sex and all his previous relationships have been with men...!
Or, to put it another way, he gives me very, very funny looks when I angst about my unshaven everything, and patiently explains that he wouldn't even have noticed if I hadn't made a big deal of it. As far as "a male-centred society's norms" go, you'll not get a *great* deal of that from him - he treats people as people, on the whole, and gets irritated when people treat him as a man, first and foremost, rather than a person, which is part of his problem with women-only spaces.
Similarly, I get quite annoyed with people who treat me primarily as a woman (especially if they've got it wrong and I'm a bloke that day!) rather than a person, and had a rather fun time at a party the other evening being Generally Cleverer than some boy who prides himself on his intellect and "well, I used to be misogynist, but then I realised there wasn't any point because women run everything anyway". Sorry. I'm rambling. What was the point?
Oh, yes. The community, at the time, had the rule that people could only join if they were vouched for as women by a member (or after discussion with the mods, etc), and what was said in the loos stayed in the loos. It was quite high-volume, which meant I ended up thinking about all sorts of things and issues that I couldn't discuss with him in the specific, which we both found frustrating - him more so because he didn't understand why I'd trust $everywoman more than him, or why other women of his acquaintance would be happier talking about problems they were having to a group of unqualified strangers for the sole reason that they were female than to him, whom they knew well: given that he has no strong gender-identity, it was very upsetting to him that his perceived gender affected people's treatment of him more than their knowledge of him as himself.
There are an awful lot of things he simply doesn't understand: why I'd be more afraid of rape than of a mugging; why I'd be more afraid than statistics would indicate necessary to walk down a street at night; why I feel that people's reactions to me-as-a-woman are worse than people's reactions to him-as-gay and so on. We've spent the past two years of our relationship discussing this more and more; he doesn't understand why I'd be more upset about problems-affecting-women than problems affecting any other class or group that I'm a member of, and to be honest I'm not sure I am, but if I am then I'm not sure why.
I *do* know that there's "male privlege" lurking in there, but he's being very good about thinking about it as and when an issue comes up - and I'm pathetically grateful about the fact that he's taking equal responsibility regarding issues of contraception and so on and agrees that we're nowhere near ready for sex, two and a half years in, and so on.
Oh dear. This has turned into a diatribe that is more about him-and-egalitarianism, rather than us-and-women's-spaces. Er, ask more specific questions and I'll be happy to answer them?
(PS: something I've been meaning to wave at this group for a while: Our Daughters Will Never Be Free, by the Indelicates. I think it can be found on their website if you poke around enough, and it's really, really good.)
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Brooke
AGA Blogger
Reged: Jun 23 2006
Posts: 466
Loc: Pennsylvania
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Jill, yes! Men really feel the need to invade women-centered spaces, so it seems and interject their viewpoints. Thats why I am glad the mom's group. It sucks on one level that women of all ages and non-mothers are not involved, but being in the context of motherhood has made it easy to tell if a man is among the ranks.
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Jenny
Be-Musing Momma
Reged: Jun 12 2006
Posts: 225
Loc: Minnesota
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There's a fabulous women-centered retreat farm, Clare's Well, in Minnesota run by Franciscan nuns. I was discussing the retreat with a man who organizes Catholic retreats in my area, and he asked me what "women-centered" meant.
I said, "Oh, you know--it's like everything else in the world, except that the norm is assumed to be female, not male."
He changed the subject.
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No matter what your fight, don’t be ladylike! God Almighty made women and the Rockefeller gang of thieves made the ladies. ~Mother Jones
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Jill
Reged: Jun 22 2006
Posts: 132
Loc: Irons, MI, US
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Quote:
Similarly, I get quite annoyed with people who treat me primarily as a woman (especially if they've got it wrong and I'm a bloke that day!) rather than a person....
My apologies for making assumptions. However, I made assumptions about your gender because of what I'd read in this thread. I don't think I understand why someone who doesn't necessarily identify as a woman has an interest in women-only spaces. Personally, women's spaces appeal to me because it so often isn't acceptable to be a woman elsewhere; it's a relief to have a space where my sex and gender are just fine the way they are. I'd be interested in your perspective and how these spaces appeal to you.
(And just because I've seen a few conversations about gender in women-only spaces turn nasty, I'd like to be clear I'm asking out of interest and a desire to expand my understanding and not with the idea of becoming the gender police.)
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wombat
Reged: Feb 09 2007
Posts: 10
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Oh, Lord - no, I didn't mean I was annoyed with you. It was a general thing - people at school shocked if I show up in dresses, and so on, because I seem to be generally read as fairly androgynous. ("You see, there is masculine, and feminine, and then there is [wombat], and it's disconcerting when you cross over into either!" - though that's actually a fairly fantastic thing to have had said to me, I feel... )
I think I've possibly overstated things just a little by identifying as genderqueer: most of the time I am female. Once in a very rare while I get days on which I am clearly and unambiguously mentally male, but they're sufficiently infrequent to be not worth worrying about on the whole - except while they're happening.
Er, let's see if I can clarify. You said:
Quote:
Personally, women's spaces appeal to me because it so often isn't acceptable to be a woman elsewhere; it's a relief to have a space where my sex and gender are just fine the way they are.
I think that's actually more-or-less what I meant by saying that I get annoyed when people treat me primarily as a woman: I would love it (as I suspect we all would!) if my sex and gender were routinely ignored[1], rather than seen as my chief attribute and the most important thing about me (ooh, that's a better way of phrasing it). I've picked up the label partly because it helps condense the long-and-boring explanation and partly because it gives me an avenue into explaining to my peers that, er, no, The World Doesn't Work Like That, but in summary: I'm mostly a (fairly androgynous (in mind, though not in body) geeky scientist studenty bisexual) cis-woman with the odd trans-day, who wants to be treated like a person not a sex - and the awareness of my trans-days possibly makes me more painfully aware of the fact that I'm terrified to go out in public with my nasty hairy armpits showing, but if I were male-bodied it would be fine. (I parody slightly: in and of myself, outside the social context, I actively like my body hair; having on display makes me miserable.)
On the other hand, I think I'd much rather that such spaces were unisex, rather than single-sex, not least because a single-sex space perpetuates the idea of the gender binary, which is something I get the impression feminism-in-general (yes, I know, everywoman!) would rather didn't exist?
On the gripping hand[2], I ended up in my friends' kitchen the other evening, helping them get ready for a party that they were holding - and it's a household of women. And the atmosphere was... fantastic, and made me slightly wistful about the idea of living with them, which isn't ever going to be practical.
I mean... well. Sadly, it seems I am more comfortable (as a woman!) in women-only environments, if there have to be strangers present, but I would much, much rather this wasn't the case. I think one of my big problems is that I've not managed to convince myself that excluding the "good blokes" isn't making matters worse.
Argh. This is a much-delayed reply and once again I'm rambling too much and there's evil evil hyperbolics homework due tomorrow, so I'll leave it at this, but I apologise for lack of clarity and repetitions. 
[1] This is probably compounded by the fact that my attraction to other people doesn't seem to work "normally" - I have no memory for faces and can only recognise them after a lot of interaction with an individual; I don't seem to have any sense of "objective beauty" that maps well into conversation with other people. Basically, how physically attracted I am by somebody is based pretty much solely on what I think of their personalities, and having people attracted to me because of my body rather than my self throws me for one: it makes me uncomfortable even when it's my boyfriend saying I'm in any sense objectively beautiful, or whatever.
[2] Sorry for geek references.
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wombat
Reged: Feb 09 2007
Posts: 10
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Oh, give over, me - I've just gone and worked out what I'm *actually* trying to say about my self-identification as genderqueer...!
The vast majority of the time, when left to my own devices, I am unequivocally and happily Woman, and revel in my self and body and so on.
When placed in the context of Other People, on the whole I find it very difficult being treated as their idea of Woman (but again, don't we all? :/ ) - be they male or female - and so have picked the label to mean, more or less, "I am not going to stick to the rules you expect me to follow and you might want to bear this in mind".
So, again more succintly, what I want is not so much woman-only space - where I might still be expected to shave, wear make-up, wear dresses, not be a nerd, have sex in long-term relationships before I feel ready for it, not be prepared to go on at great and tedious length about safe-sex practices and sexuality and gender - but space where most of the gender-role-related assumptions are suspended. I *think* I feel that other women who seek out such space and *much* more likely to be enthusiastically in favour of individuality than any other assortment of people I come across: unisex all-assumptions-suspended space, some of which I do have available, seems to fall down at the point at which the women present simply don't believe that the men there will take them seriously/be understanding/whatever, *even if they will be* - and the mutual suspicion and distrust is what really gets to me. Sure, women-only space removes the suspicion from the immediate surroundings, but doesn't do much to help inter-sex relations, as far as I can tell (though no, I'm not saying that women ought to take all responsibility for fostering communications - far from it).
It's interesting to note (for me, at least) that the equivalent male-only space on my corner of the internet goes more-or-less unused, too, while the women-only space has over 500 members and is massively active.
Sometimes I feel slightly bad for taking "genderqueer" as my label rather than "feminist" (though I seem to use that too), given some of the meaning I'm imbuing the term with; on the other hand, if all else fails I suppose I just plea being late-teens and confused...
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Jill
Reged: Jun 22 2006
Posts: 132
Loc: Irons, MI, US
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(First, you didn't seem annoyed -- I just wanted to make sure my intentions weren't lost in the text. )
Quote:
I would love it (as I suspect we all would!) if my sex and gender were routinely ignored[1], rather than seen as my chief attribute and the most important thing about me (ooh, that's a better way of phrasing it).
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On the other hand, I think I'd much rather that such spaces were unisex, rather than single-sex...
In my experience, part of what makes women-only spaces so unique is the way I can take someone's sex for granted and move on to the more important aspects. In those spaces it seems easier to focus on someone's actions and choices instead of getting lost in expectations. It's always been utterly amazing for me to be around a large group of women and see how each of us work our sex and gender into our greater sense of self.
Which makes me think of your point about being treated as other people's idea of woman. Women are expected to meet other people's definition of woman or feminine or whatever, even if it conflicts with our own. What I've been wondering for some time now is how much those external expectations -- all those years of being told that we've been being ourselves wrong -- is affecting gender identification for butch women? (Or feminine men for that matter.) If you were allowed to express your gender how you felt it, without outside influence, do you think you'd still have those days where you feel male?
Two other points that I wanted to respond to:
Quote:
Sure, women-only space removes the suspicion from the immediate surroundings, but doesn't do much to help inter-sex relations, as far as I can tell (though no, I'm not saying that women ought to take all responsibility for fostering communications - far from it).
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I think one of my big problems is that I've not managed to convince myself that excluding the "good blokes" isn't making matters worse.
I think right now, feminism still needs to work on strengthening relationships between women and that's something that happens routinely in women-only spaces. So no, they're not about improving inter-sex communications at all and that's what's so radical about them: whether intentional or coincidental, women's spaces serve women's needs.
Even so, that doesn't negate anyone else's contributions to feminism or women as a people, it just gives us a chance to come together and take care of ourselves and one another. In my opinion, nothing but good can come of that.
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Joey
AGA Blogger
Reged: Jun 13 2006
Posts: 216
Loc: Germany
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I've noticed lately that, not only do I never find myself in exclusively female settings, I actually tend to be a part of groups where I am the only female.
It was pointed out to me a few weeks ago that, in one of my classes, I sit on the side of the room where all the guys sit (it seriously happened over the course of the semester that the seating arrangment gradually changed and now we have a guy's side and a girl's side), and I replied that, well, I am sitting with all my friends. I just feel comfortable in this group and I feel able to pretty much discuss whatever I like. My feminism is widely known and respected, I'll voice my opinions on that when I feel like it and if one of my friends says something that bugs me, I'll point it out and we often end up discussing it quite constructively.
And this is really a pattern with me, too. For as far as I can think back, I've had at least one really close guy friend, and more often than not, I was closer with that guy than I was with any of my girl friends. It's really only been very recently that I've formed really strong bonds with female friends.
The last time I remember being part of some sort of a women's only space was in the spring, during my internship, when I would spend my days with my co workers. But all we ever ended up discussing was guys (three of the women were in the process of getting divorced, one of them was just starting to date someone new and another one was worried about her daughter's boyfriend).
So, basically, this site is pretty much the only place where I've been in a women's only space and liked it. I should probably invest some time thinking about why I seem to get along better with males.
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"The question is not who will let me, but who is going to stop me." -Ayn Rand-
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Kampire
AGA Blogger
Reged: Jun 20 2006
Posts: 205
Loc: Ohio
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When I lived with 2 female roomates (and close friends) it was very interesting to watch male visitors respond to our women-only space. It was as though when they entered our home, they had to concede the (I'm having trouble finding the right words here)primacy of the female view point. I think thats what I love best about women-only spaces. That, and the walking around naked part.
That's not to say that some male visitors did not try to dominate, but my roomates and I got pretty good at not letting that happen in our home.
Like the guy who implied that he got girls drunk and took advantage of them, whatever reaction he was expecting to get from a male-centred environment he obviously did not get from us.
Obviously there are many things different between online women-only spaces and one's physical home. I've learned that there are many things similar too.
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Speaking out for women's rights: voice4choice.org
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