Jeyoani
Be-Musing Momma
Reged: Jun 23 2006
Posts: 155
Loc: California, USA
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Who are everyones favorite TV/Movie Sheroes?
Por mi:
NATTY GANN from Journey of Natty Gann
Uma Thuurman/The Bride from the Kill Bills Vol. 1 and 2
Heroine from "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon"!
Heroine from "Spirited Away".
Gena Rowlands in "Woman Under the Influence"
And then, Andrea Martin and Laverne and Shirley, Lucille Ball, Mollie Shannon, Janeane Garafaolo, Margaret Cho and Carol Burnett.
I used to be crazy about Anne Shirley too, from Anne of Green Gables/Avonlea.
Yep!
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"Scratch any woman deeply enough and you find a feminist." -Christina McCall
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Karyn
Reged: Jun 22 2006
Posts: 16
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
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Buffy from Buffy the Vampire Slayer is my all-time favourite.
Anne Shirley, definitely! Kaylee from Firefly. Hmmm....I know there's more, but I've gone blank. I'm sure I'll think of some more later!
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Amy
AGA Blogger
Reged: Jun 20 2006
Posts: 87
Loc: Yorkshire, England, UK
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Hard to think about, but if I remember rightly Sin City had some pretty kick ass female characters?
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It's high time you find diamonds in this coalmine called me.
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Mae
AGA Blogger
Reged: Jun 21 2006
Posts: 15
Loc: California, USA
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Probaley, Lauren Graham from gilmore girls or molly from the breakfest club
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Brooke
AGA Blogger
Reged: Jun 23 2006
Posts: 466
Loc: Pennsylvania
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Wow someone else has seen Natty Gann? That's awesome!
I guess my list would be...
The Bride from Kill Bill
Jo in Little Women
Erin Brockovich in Erin Brockovich
Princess Lela in Star Wars
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Heather
Be-Musing Momma
Reged: Feb 05 2006
Posts: 721
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Hey, Brooke and Jeyoani?
I'm glad you brought up Kill Bill. Honestly, the first movie made me literally sick to my stomach with all the rampant misogyny -- in short, I felt like the whole of the movie was really only about Tarantino making his own pornography, so he could watch pretty women fighting over the loyalty of a man. If people even said the name of the film for weeks, I would launch into a stream of invective, and it's very unusual for movies to have THAT level of effect on me.
So, here y'all are, two smart, caring feminist women. I've had others tell me I just didn't get it, and I think to SOME degree that's possible (but knowing what I know about Tarantino, that my feelings on his motives are also likely a big part of the deal, too), so want to dish about why YOU liked that film/character?
I'm interested and curious.
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If I had to characterize one quality as the genius of feminist thought, culture, and action, it would be the connectivity. - Robin Morgan
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Jeyoani
Be-Musing Momma
Reged: Jun 23 2006
Posts: 155
Loc: California, USA
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Heather, I was suprised I was so in love w/it too when I saw it. I do not like Tarrantino. Ever since reading a quote from him that said some film had "the best rape scene ever!"
Also fun dialogue be damned, his misogyny to me is as bad as anything from Snoop Dog, Dr Dre, Eminem et all...
I accidently saw "Kill Bill". A friend bought it and I thought "ah I'll watch the first 15 minutes..."
No.1 I love seeing women fighting well--(also why I love "Crouching Tiger...")
But no. 2, --I realized after scratching my head over how I could love such a violent film -- what it was. Like a few days later, still trying to figure out why I was so emotionally affected. It was so not a "Jenni" kind of film!
I realized it was becuause Bill almost kills the pregnant Bride. And Uma Thurman is blonde (like my mom) and due to her heart and mind power, near-invincibble, and so "good"--a good, stout hearted woman. (Just like my mom.) And so I realized that I loved it b/c it reminded me of MY mom. B/c when my mom was pregnant w/me, she was beat w/a lead pipe and came near death--also like Thurman's character, by her husband. And yet my mom survived, and I survived inside her, after surgeries , weeks' hospitalization, and like Thurman -- after going through near-murdered experience, almost the first first thing she does (in Vol. 1, and 2,)upon consciousness is crack a joke. (My mom did same thing.)
And I never even liked U.Thurman at all til Kill Bill, and now I adore her.
Also b/c Thurman is in love w/her daughter, and my mom, regardless the men she had to suffer, loved me, wouldn't take her eyes off me, so much so that one of the nurses said to her, "Hey, I don't think you like your baby very much!!" b/c my mom wouldn't put me in the hospital bassinet, she kept me in bed w/her the whole time, looking at me.
So that's me ...do you disagree that it was a film w/merit seeing as it was dominated by formidable women? Oh also-- I liked the way they showed the history of one of the most heartless , fierce fighters -- how she had become so fierce partly due to having been a child sex abuse survivor,and she enacts vengeance on him too I think? --
--To me it's a good, woman-empowering film, in spite of the Director ....? Though, it's not about sisterhood. So this is not good. It doesn't really directly challenge the patriarchy b/c Bill is too revered and he dies honorably. (But, at least he dies at the Bride's hands -- did you see No.2? No. 2 is my favorite one.)
Oh one other cool thing -- I thought one notable part was where the female assassin won't kill Thurman when she finds out she is pregnant. I thought that was really good, honor amongst female assassins if you will. That was sort of sister-love.
But give me your entire lowdown on Tarrantino, Kill Bill, etc., for sure.
p.s. Brooke-yes! Natty Gann freaking ROCKS. LOVE that flick and then some -- I own it. I wish I had the poster.
p.p.s. I don't think my Mom would like Kill Bill. She is a pacifist. But it doesn't change the fact that the Bride reminded me of her. It's like a battered woman/mother's triumph story to me.
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"Scratch any woman deeply enough and you find a feminist." -Christina McCall
Edited by Jeyoani (Fri Jul 14 2006 02:31 PM)
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Amelia
AGA Blogger
Reged: Jul 14 2006
Posts: 15
Loc: California
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Quote:
Hard to think about, but if I remember rightly Sin City had some pretty kick ass female characters?
Personally I thought I would love Sin City but was just too let down by all of the--what I felt--were poor weak female characters. I loved the format of the movie and such but I just ranted on how degrading I found it. But that's just my take.
I love Kill Bill. I love Tarantino period really. Uma was just awesome.
My personal favorite sheros though? I absolutely adored Joan of Arc as a child. I'd also have to say that Pippi Longstocking was one of my idols. More recent sheros of mine would probably have to be Olivia from Law and Order: SVU and what's-her-face from The Closer. I can't stand the souther accent she has so I don't really watch the show too often. But I absolutely love how strong her character is.
Thelma and Louise of course. So maybe they can't be categorized as sheros but they can definitely count as idols.
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Andrea
AGA Blogger
Reged: Jun 20 2006
Posts: 106
Loc: Austin, TX
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(How weird! I was just watching this movie called 'Bad Girls' last night, and was just about to post a similar topic.)
I think what saved Sin City for me was the esthetic aspect. It didn't do much for me plot-wise, though the idea of a district run by lethal prostitutes was kind of interesting. I think this has a lot to do with that lingering question of "Am I not a good feminist for liking so and so"
After years of watching them with my Dad, i'm a sucker for some action movies, and it's a shame that there aren't more with kick-ass women. But maybe this is the same reason that I'm able to appreciate movies like Tank Girl so much - because it takes the same exciting action element, but also makes it wholly relevant to me, as a girl.
Sigourney Weaver in the Alien series is also one of my favorites.
That 'Bad Girls' movie that I watched the other day also had some pretty awesome characters - it was kind of like a feminist western, (though littered with "good-looking" save-the-day boys.)
Has anybody ever seen Born in Flames? There's a feminist shero for everybody, in that movie.
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"In actual fact the female function is to explore, discover, intent, solve problems, crack jokes, make music – all with love."
Valerie Solanas
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Heather
Be-Musing Momma
Reged: Feb 05 2006
Posts: 721
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Yeah, Sin City was another on where I had to make myself not throw up in my mouth a little. I should have known better, really, I knew the graphic novel, and knew how violent it was, how sexualized so much violence twoards women was in it.
(Jeyoani, that's interesting. Will have to think on that. Thanks for sharing, is certainly a differrent take than I had.)
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If I had to characterize one quality as the genius of feminist thought, culture, and action, it would be the connectivity. - Robin Morgan
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Adrienne
AGA Blogger
Reged: Jun 20 2006
Posts: 77
Loc: Virginia, USA
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I will say it once, and then I will fade into obscurity once more:
Kiki's Delivery Service. Full of sheros.
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Life under construction. Signature will have to wait.
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Brooke
AGA Blogger
Reged: Jun 23 2006
Posts: 466
Loc: Pennsylvania
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I haven't ever read any interviews by Tarantino, only seen him on Jay Leno and other late night shows. I never considered him a sexist. When you look at his female characters they are strong women. I like all of his films. Has anyone here seen Jackie Brown?
I love Kill Bill. I can honestly say its the best movie I have ever seen. The visual aspects of it, mixed with the soundtrack are perfect. The characters are well formed. The dialogue is so close to reality you can almost believe that the film is real. Plus, I am a violence, blood and guts kind of person. I like that stuff.
Like other Tarantino films, I think Kill Bill is about trust and revenge. The bride trusted Bill, killed for him, followed his teachings. When she left, he attempted to have her killed, she believes that he killed her and his child in the process. So she seeks out those who were responsible and kills them. She goes to kill bill, only to find out her child is alive. She still kills bill, to save her child from being raised as an assassin and for revenge. In the end, she has her revenge. She has her child. Everything is the way it should be.
Not only is the story about a man breaking her trust, almost killing her and the bride seeking revenge. Its also about the other women seeking revenge as well. Lucy Lui's character kills the man who murdered her parents. Daryl Hannah's character almost kills the Bride out of jealousy and then kills Bill's brother for "killing" the bride. Its also about survival. No matter what is done to the Bride she doesn't die.
I definitely don't think its about pretty women fighting over a man. For one thing I don't think the actresses were hired because of their looks. I think they were hired because they are good actresses. Besides which the movie is way more complex then who is fighting who.
My younger brother said that Kill Bill is like Charlies Angels only the girls actually kill people. I think when I see the movie, I see a lot more then that. Maybe its because I can see all the influences in the film, maybe I just see something your not seeing.
I love Sin City as well, although I don't think it even comes close to Kill Bill. I do have a problem with a few of the characters in the movie, it comes pretty close to just being a stupid blood and guts film with a few attractive women.
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Celine
Reged: Jun 24 2006
Posts: 37
Loc: Canada
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I haven't noticed many TV sheroes being posted, so I'll take a stab:
Veronica Mars: Snappy, self-reliant, hard-boiled high schooler? I'm there. Granted, she can make some pretty bad decisions for herself (following strange guys into bars, falling for someone who was threatening her half a season before) but I like that she's human in that way. It makes for a rounded character. Plus, I love the portrayal of her relationship with her father.
And what about all the women from Serenity and Firefly? Another Joss Whedon opus, which is good, because he's all about the strong female roles. Each of them are fierce and independent for different (and unusual reasons): Zoe, the militant who is also married; Kaylee the mechanical genius; Inara, the concubine type who doesn't take crap for her profession and fights better than half the guys on the ship and River, who seems sweet and loopy, but cares deeply for her brother and crew, and kicks serious butt when the time calls for it. They're all really unique and special, and I wish the series had had the time to develop everyone, because it was just too cool and inspiring.
It does spawn off an interesting side note, though. Joss Whedon is notoriously pro-woman, and writes strong female characters - how many of our favourite sheroes so far are born of the male writer/director? (Tarantino, Whedon, Miyazaki, etc.)
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Jean
Reged: Jul 05 2006
Posts: 26
Loc: New Mexico/Colorado
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On the same Sci-Fi yilk that was brought up by Karyn and Celine, I love the women of Firefly. Zoe, especially, is a favorite of mine.
I also have always thought of Aeryn Sun from Farscape (Farscape is another Sci-Fi series with some strong, lead women roles) as one of my favorite women protagonists. (I think, as far as a genre goes, Science Fiction has been stand-out in presenting stronger female characters. Stargate SG-1 had a very strong female lead, and while I haven't watched it myself, the Battlestar Galactica miniseries was supposed to have at least one strong woman-lead. And while highly male-dominated, the various Star Trek series have had some stand-out women.)
My dad started reading me Lord of the Rings when I was a little girl, so I've grown up a complete Tolkein-ite, and I have always ADORED the character of Eowyn. I though Miranda Otto did a phenominal job in her portrayal of the character in the films.
I have also always been a huge fan of Carol Burnett and Lily Tomlin- strong, sensible, intelligent, FUNNY women!
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Heather
Be-Musing Momma
Reged: Feb 05 2006
Posts: 721
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Brooke (and Jeyoani), I just found some feminist analysis of the film that's more in line with what the two of you see in it, thought I'd toss it your way for your reading pleasure: http://www.thefword.org.uk/reviews/2003/11/kill_bill.
Here's another (November 12th), but it does comment on the overt racism: http://www.bitchmagazine.com/blogtest/archives/2003_11.html
And here's a little more in line with where my head was at: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/10/26/1067103267287.html?from=storyrhs and http://flakmag.com/film/killbill2.html.
Interesting different perspectives. Thanks for sharing!
(And I have seen Jackie Brown, and like the original films its based on, just could not get past the racism.)
Adrienne! Kiki's Delivery Service! YES!
I'm out the door in a bit (to yes, the third OB/GYN visit in a year... ah, the joys of fluid-bonding), but per some film sheroes, I'd have to say Anya from Buffy (love Buffy too, but Anya has an extra dimension I appreciate), absolutely the women in Firefly, all of the women in Allison Anders' Mi Vida Loca (really, I love all the female characters she does in her films, period), Ripley in the Aliens films, Thelma & Louise, for sure, the girl in Whale Rider, Josey Aimes in North Country, Marge in Fargo, Norma Rae, the women in Katja Von Garnier's Bandits, Josephine Monaghan in The Ballad of Little Jo, Sister Helen Prejean in Dead Man Walking, Lianna in Lianna (a John Sayles film about a wwoman who realizes she's lesbian, one of the first made), Gertrudis in Like Water for Chocolate, the women in Tea and Mussolini, Tina Turner from the What's Love Got To Do With It biopic, Maude in Harold and Maude (favorite.movie.ever.)...
...and most of those are from female-directed or written films, for any in need. 
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If I had to characterize one quality as the genius of feminist thought, culture, and action, it would be the connectivity. - Robin Morgan
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Brooke
AGA Blogger
Reged: Jun 23 2006
Posts: 466
Loc: Pennsylvania
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I think we have to be very very careful how much we are reading into things before we label them as sexist or racist. I don't consider Tarentino's films to be sexist or racist, I consider them to be honest in dialogue in his attempts to make the unreal, seem more real to the viewer. I noticed in one of the articles it points out a racist phrase used in one of Tarentino's films. Not only can the N-word used in some groups to refer to both blacks and whites, but because a character in his film says a racist statement, that makes his films full of "overt racism"? Also, while in two of his films Samuel L. Jackson plays a gangster, which some people would call a black stereotype, in other Tarantino films white people play gangsters and in all instances, the characters are three dimensional. Not the typical "I'm going to kill you for my crack money" gangsters that are often portrayed. I think part of what makes the films so great is that Tarantino sees the sterotypes in popular media and then transforms them into real people, with emotions, with motive, with reason, so that they no longer fit the stereotype.
I also don't get how Kill Bill was made for a male audience. Yes, there is blood and violence, but the movie also captures something strongly feminine, the loss of a child that I don't think a male audience can fully understand or appreciate.
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Heather
Be-Musing Momma
Reged: Feb 05 2006
Posts: 721
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
I also don't get how Kill Bill was made for a male audience. Yes, there is blood and violence, but the movie also captures something strongly feminine, the loss of a child that I don't think a male audience can fully understand or appreciate.
Well, that's a bit of an odd statement, since if you're saying you feel tarantino portrayed it accurately, then you're saying HE understood it, no?
Per Jackie Brown containing racism, really, that comes out of the gnre the film was about, Blackxploitation films which were absolutely INTENDED to be racist. Far as I say with that film, Tarantino didn't divulge from the mold much.
Personally -- obviously, we have a difference of opinion, no problem there -- I didn't see Tranatino doing what you did per accomplishing more dimensional characters, realer people. When it comes to all the filmmakers we have out there in the world, I'd have to say that in my opinion, he's pretty low on the scale, there. Same goes when it coms to gender.
Absolutely, I'm interested in and willoing to see different interpretations of work, but Tranatino as a person has been quoted all over the place during his tenure with arseloads of sexist, racist comments. I don't think one has to read into, for instance, something like this (of Icelandic women): ""I'm in a room full of supermodels who were drunk out of their mind standing on a table, (going) 'Let's get the party started.' I'm like, 'Where have I been all my life."
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If I had to characterize one quality as the genius of feminist thought, culture, and action, it would be the connectivity. - Robin Morgan
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Brooke
AGA Blogger
Reged: Jun 23 2006
Posts: 466
Loc: Pennsylvania
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Uma Thurman also helped in creating the script. She was pregnant in the first stages of filming, which actually helped Tarantino create the story line.
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Beppie
Reged: Jun 22 2006
Posts: 362
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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I haven't seen Kill Bill, but from the sound of it, couldn't the whole "assassin not killing the woman because she was pregnant" thing simply be construed as privileging the life of a fetus over the life of a woman-- basically saying that her life is only valuable because she is breeding?
Having said that, I often find myself in turmoil in terms of female characters that I admire, because often, when I look at things more closely, I see that they are promoting sexist paradigms. For instance, one movie that made me feel great was "G.I. Jane"-- now, I am totally not a military minded person, I protest wars instead of supporting them, and a lot of stuff that happened in that movie was stuff that I hated. But it still made me feel really powerful as a woman. I loved seeing Demi Moore kicking some ass. An even worse example comes from the second Bridget Jones movie-- not only does it say that the ultimate fulfillment for a woman is a relationship with a man, it was badly written and very badly acted. Yet, when I went to see it with two feminist friends, we all came out of the theatre feeling bizarrely empowered-- I have NO IDEA why this is. None of us found the actual relationship that she formed with Mark Darcy empowering, it wasn't a great movie-- but for some reason we all felt good about ourselves, and I walked home thinking "ha! No man is ever going to stop me doing anything cool!" And I really have no idea why, because that is not the message that the film gives at all.
As for my real feminist sheroes-- SHIRLEY VALENTINE!!! If you have not seen this movie, it is a total must. It's about a 40-something Manchester housewife who goes on a trip to Greece, and doesn't come home.
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Brooke
AGA Blogger
Reged: Jun 23 2006
Posts: 466
Loc: Pennsylvania
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Ah no. If someone almost killed you and the child inside you, what would you do? Sit around quietly and pretend it never happened?
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