Beppie
Reged: Jun 22 2006
Posts: 362
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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As I said, I haven't seen the movie. I was under the impression from what has been discussed that an assassin chose not to kill a woman because she was pregnant. THAT seems like saying that a woman's life only becomes valuable if she's pregnant, rather than a powerful feminist statement.
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Heather
Be-Musing Momma
Reged: Feb 05 2006
Posts: 728
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Didn't know that about Thurman, Brooke. Interesting (especially considering her Dad is one of the premier scholars in Tibetan Buddhism...dig that irony).
And Shirley Valentine! YES! I extra-specially lov that one because a) when I was a teenager, my Dad insisted we see it because he wanted me to dig that caharcter and b) I have heard so many women ten or twenty years older than me for whom that film created a total breakthrough.
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If I had to characterize one quality as the genius of feminist thought, culture, and action, it would be the connectivity. - Robin Morgan
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Amy
AGA Blogger
Reged: Jun 20 2006
Posts: 87
Loc: Yorkshire, England, UK
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Anyone seen Wild Things? Interesting film in terms of strong women.
As for Bridget Jones 2 and feeling empowered afterwards, could it be because of the Daniel character trying to manipulate Bridget into being with him, and being the stereotypical arrogant male who is sure he knows best, but she didn't listen and followed what she wanted and went back to Mark and all turned out well?
How about Cagney + Lacey?
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It's high time you find diamonds in this coalmine called me.
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Brooke
AGA Blogger
Reged: Jun 23 2006
Posts: 474
Loc: Pennsylvania
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Quote:
As I said, I haven't seen the movie. I was under the impression from what has been discussed that an assassin chose not to kill a woman because she was pregnant. THAT seems like saying that a woman's life only becomes valuable if she's pregnant, rather than a powerful feminist statement.
This is what I mean when I talk about reading into things. You haven't even seen the film and already your making a claim that a movie about assassins is somehow about abortion? Or how much a woman is worth?
I guess you can see sexism and racism in everything if you choose to.
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Heather
Be-Musing Momma
Reged: Feb 05 2006
Posts: 728
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I don't think that Beppie was stating the film was about abortion. In addition, I think the conversations about the film, and the material linked to about it, already had addressed the worth of women: we do that pretty much anything we put something up to feminist analysis.
I also don't think this is about HER seeing sexism and racism "in everything." Let's make sure that what we're going for is communicating, okay? because a LOT of people -- feminists, film reviewers, etc. -- HAVE seen both of these things in Tarantino films. Heck, Tarantino HIMSELF in an interview SAID he was making an "exploitation film that that every exploitation-movie lover has always wished for." These are issues that have been brought up again and again around these films, so I think it's pretty safe to say nobody's pulling a magic bunny out of their tushies here.
I don't see any reason to cut off these discussions at the pass by getting defensive: I think that overall, thus far, this discussion about these films has been such to honor a myriad of different perspectives, and that those of us who don't share yours are recognizing that ours are different, not more or less valid.
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If I had to characterize one quality as the genius of feminist thought, culture, and action, it would be the connectivity. - Robin Morgan
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Beppie
Reged: Jun 22 2006
Posts: 362
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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Quote:
As for Bridget Jones 2 and feeling empowered afterwards, could it be because of the Daniel character trying to manipulate Bridget into being with him, and being the stereotypical arrogant male who is sure he knows best, but she didn't listen and followed what she wanted and went back to Mark and all turned out well?
I honestly have no idea. This is really strange for me, because usually I have a fairly good idea of why I react in particular ways to texts-- I analyse them as my job after all (PhD student in English). The fact that she goes back to Mark-- a guy who is TOTALLY condescending towards her-- isn't particularly feminist. In that second movie they had absolutely NO onscreen chemistry, and as such, it really REALLY looks like just going back to a guy for the sake of, well, not being single. He also plays the typical "knight in shining armour" role, rescuing her from jail etc. I think the point I should be making with this, is just because a female character resonates strongly with us as women, it doesn't necessarily mean that a feminist statement is being made.
Quote:
This is what I mean when I talk about reading into things. You haven't even seen the film and already you’re making a claim that a movie about assassins is somehow about abortion? Or how much a woman is worth?
I was commenting on what has directly been reported about the film, however: I did NOT say “I heard this film must be about assassins, therefore it must be about abortion”—I looked at what has been said about the actual content of the film. Either the woman did refuse to kill another woman because she was pregnant, or she didn't. If she did, then that, in my opinion, DOES put a higher value on the life of the fetus than on the life of the woman, OR it says that a woman's life is more valuable when she's pregnant. And, yes, that is the same ideology that underpins the anti-abortion movement, though as Heather pointed out, I wasn't claiming that the film was making an explicit comment about abortion rights. Also as Heather said, it is important that we take all of our perspectives seriously, and to that end, I would like to hear about a closer analysis of the scene from you, in which you could perhaps make your point further.
Often, I think people avoid looking too closely at texts because they are afraid of being charged with “reading too much into it” or because they think the idea that things like sexism and racism are not very pervasive. Unfortunately, when you live in a culture that is based on the hegemony of a particular race and/or a particular gender, those things WILL be pervasive, but they will rarely be very obvious, because we just accept it as the norm.
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And, back to original topic, I can't believe that I didn't mention the girls from Bend it Like Beckham-- awesome, awesome portrayal of young women making it in a male-dominated sport (not to mention in the context of a culture that expects women to get married ASAP).
Edited by Beppie (Sun Jul 16 2006 06:07 PM)
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Brooke
AGA Blogger
Reged: Jun 23 2006
Posts: 474
Loc: Pennsylvania
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That didn't happen in the movie which is why your comment is so annoyingly frustrating. Can we keep our comments to films we have actually seen please? Nothing bothers me more then people saying condemning something they have not even seen. Like when everyone was talking about Fahrenheit 911.
One of the reviews posted DID read into the film. The writer, who was male btw, says something about Kill Bill 2 like, why is the Bride and Daryl Hannah's character fighting in a trailer...did the Bride grow up in a trailer, is it referencing her being angry about that? I was like, what is this guy talking about?
You can find sexism and racism in everything if you choose to. We live in a racist and sexist society. Racism and sexism are socialized into every single one of us. The question to ask, is if material ENCOURAGES racism or sexism.
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Mae
AGA Blogger
Reged: Jun 21 2006
Posts: 15
Loc: California, USA
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Probaley gilmore girls, full house, in search of..., pink panther or The sixth sence. i love sixth sence b/c its scary! 
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Jean
Reged: Jul 05 2006
Posts: 26
Loc: New Mexico/Colorado
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Having seen Kill Bill 2, and just to play Devil's Advocate and support Brooke's side to some extent-
The exact scene she is referring to, I believe, has more weight in the CHARACTER'S value of a possible child and of being a mother than in the assassin placing more value in her life because she's now pregnant. One of the major points of Kill Bill 2 (moreso than the first) is about how The Bride felt about her child, about losing her child, about WANTING to be a mother, and about wanting to protect her child. I think it IS fair to say that when a woman become pregnant and has either planned to or decides she wants to carry the pregnancy to term and then become a mother, that she may start putting a lot more value in her own life, for the sake of the fetus and future child than she would have before.
The scene in the movie, the way I saw it, was a lot more The Bride pleading with her assassin to not kill her, and that had a lot to do with the fact that WHEN she found out she was pregnant (you find this out later in the movie), not only did she want to be able to keep the pregnancy and protect it, but because from that moment she wanted to END her life as an assassin for the sake of her future child, and to escape that life and Bill so her child would not be affected by that.
(However, as an afterthought, I would be willing to bet the fact the other assassin was a woman has more to do with why that scene isn't flat-out-offensively sexist, but DOES point to a number of reasons WHY there ARE still issues of sexism IN the film. And, having seen the film, I DO think that Beppie has made a strong argument in the fact that the whole scene DOES still present the other woman respect the Bride's pleads BECAUSE she was pregnant.)
I feel like I'm rambling so I'll cut it there, but in the short-of-it, I think both arguments have reasonable ground.
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Brooke
AGA Blogger
Reged: Jun 23 2006
Posts: 474
Loc: Pennsylvania
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Well if your talking about the scene in Kill Bill 2, where the Bride tells the other assassin that she is pregnant, it means more then "please don't kill the innocent life inside me". The Bride is making it clear that she is not part of that livestyle anymore, that she is not going to kill the person she was sent to kill. Also I think when you are pregnant it is natural to want to protect the child inside you, even if it was an unexpected pregnancy. The way both women responded, I think is true to what would occur in real life. Its actually kind of humorous when the other assassin leaves says "congratulations" as she leaves. It also showed these assassins were not heartless women. However the other women in the film and Bill who try to kill the bride are heartless.
A similar scene occurs in Kill Bill 1 in the first battle. The bride says she will not kill the woman in front of her child. I don't see why compassion is sexist.
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Miakodo
Reged: Jun 21 2006
Posts: 7
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
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TV Sheros:
* Nikita from La femme Nikita (Peta Wilson), Canadian show version, not the French movie
* Kara / Starbuck from Battlestar Galactica
* Aeryn Sun from Farscape
* J. Garner from Alias, season 1-2 only (don't watch it anymore)
* Yamiguchi from Gokusen (anime version, not live-action)
There is also Scully, of course, and the girls from Firefly (great show, sorry to see it go). And the main character from Witchblade - that was a great show I was sad to see go, too.
Movies with great sheros:
* Chocolat
* Spirited Away (anything produced by Haoyo Miyazaki, actually)
* Iron-Jawed Angels
* Run, Lola Run
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Beppie
Reged: Jun 22 2006
Posts: 362
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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Just thought of a couple more that I want to add:
Beatrice, from Much Ado About Nothing (played by Emma Thompson in the movie version)-- she's a confident sassy woman, who will only get married for herself; she even turns down the prince, and only accepts Benedick after he proves that he respects her. Quite a counterpoint to the other story, between Hero and Claudio-- since learning more about feminism, I can't watch the Hero and Claudio story without thinking that we're seeing a woman going off to an abusive marriage.  Beatrice, however, is great.
Also, I'm really liking Rose Tyler, played by Billie Piper in the new Doctor Who. One of the things that I really like about her is that she's not portrayed as having any unusual abilities that set her apart from the rest of the world, she's just amazing and courageous and gutsy as she is. I know that her portrayal in terms of appearance is also consistent with conventional representatoins of femininity, but to me, her personality is her dominant characteristic.
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Joey
AGA Blogger
Reged: Jun 13 2006
Posts: 216
Loc: Germany
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I'm surprised on one's mentioned my favourite kick-ass female character yet: Meryl Streep in 'Out of Africa'. Best.Movie.Ever.
When I was younger, my favourite character was Vada from the My Girl movies. I wanted to be her.
And as far as TV series go, I've always been a big fan of Joey in Dawson's Creek. Still am, even though I'm probably way too old for that by now. 
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"The question is not who will let me, but who is going to stop me." -Ayn Rand-
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Jeyoani
Be-Musing Momma
Reged: Jun 23 2006
Posts: 157
Loc: California, USA
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I just got two new sheroes --I saw "North Country" last night --see it! Frances McDormand and Charlize Theron are GREAT in it, so inspiring.
I love Lola from Run Lola Run , too, forgot about her. Good one Miakodo. 
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"Scratch any woman deeply enough and you find a feminist." -Christina McCall
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grrrlriot
Reged: Nov 12 2006
Posts: 4
Loc: Tennessee, USA
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My shero would be: Tank Girl from the "Tank Girl" movie.
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http://riotgrrls.proboards67.com/
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Jill
Reged: Jun 22 2006
Posts: 132
Loc: Irons, MI, US
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Roseanne Barr. I watched Roseanne years ago and liked it but after watching some reruns recently I am just amazed. That show tackled so many different feminist concerns and in such an approachable style. The fact that she brought things like abortion and gay adoption and age of consent into light and portrayed them as everyday parts of life worth time and consideration is wonderful.
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Jessica
AGA Blogger
Reged: Jun 20 2006
Posts: 39
Loc: London UK/France
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I have to say:
- Buffy, even if I hate to admit I love the show.
- Halle Berry in Monster's balls
- Winona Ryder in Girl, interrupted
- I loved Jackie Brown, not so Kill Bill ( I liked the character and the end of the second movie smoothed things a bit, but I am with Heather on this one, I felt VERY uneasy during the film).
- Tank girl (...)
- Okay... I loved the mom-who-works-in-a-diner in Queer as folk
- Sue, lost in Manhattan http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0125522/
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Beppie
Reged: Jun 22 2006
Posts: 362
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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My partner and I have been watching the 21st-century take on Battlestar Galactica over the last couple of weeks, and I'm loving the portayal of Starbuck and President Roslin (except for the fact that she outlawed abortion-- but that was... complicated).
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